-"it became hostile..it felt hostile" - well, I hear'ya bro'er. I often feel like that when believers in deity start talking about us, atheists. yep, speaking of bullies...
-"literally taking on Christian beliefs" - and that from a Journalist major? "some of our students got hurt". did they really? good.
what they claim was bullying I experience on a regular basis, and if I so much as acknowledge it, never mind complain, I am told not to be so sensitive.
Christians, or Muslims, or devout Jews, in my experience, are all the same in this regard.
You get called "pansy ass" on a regular basis? I don't think you should tolerate that. I assure you it is not "too sensitive" to complain about being called that.
oh I've been called worse. f.i., theme di jour is equaling of being an atheist = to being a commie=>socialist=>statist=> Obama supporter &&& (in not so neutral terms); which usually comes to blaming atheists (and me, by association) in all atrocities of Soviet regime during its duration, w/additional bonus of hinting that I'm a wolf in sheep's clothing within Right movement.
Guess, what I'd rather prefer, to be called "pansy ass" or this line of insult?
You are changing topic. The fact that somebody (totally unrelated to Christians we are talking about) have called you a commie because you're an atheist does not in any way justify the bullying of Christian students by Savage. Nor your "did they really? good" comment. Whatever you are bitter about these students have nothing to do with it.
I am not changing the topic. the topic was bullying of proponents of Christian religion by a gay anti-bullying activist. I am saying they tasted their own medicine; he never pointed finger to those particular students in the audience - no, they choose to take personally his remarks about religious bullies who attack gays. it's purely their taking on themselves his general observation. did I ever claim those particular students employed the reasoning I mentioned? no. I said I have experienced, among other slights, this particular line of insult - not from one person, it is a typical line, and usually from American Christians - even from those who have encountered me and my Right-wing political views before. Again: this is typical of religiously-inclined, not only towards me but a general belief that believers have no scruples voicing quite openly, in the face of atheists. Recently I met same line in a journal of Russian-American Jew - and her commenters (similarly religious) supported it. This is just one example. There are plenty variations. In this regard, Christians would rather forget their religious differences and unite with Muslims and Jews (of all stripes) against atheists. Yes, I experienced that, too.
So, once again: let them taste their own medicine. And then to grow a thicker skin - as I was advised.
It's not their own medicine - as far as you know, these students never bullied anybody and came to listen to anti-bullying lecture. Instead they got Savage insulting them and their faith. That's like saying it's OK to attack random jewish person on the street because you once were wronged by a different jewish person. They are all jews, right, so what's the difference?
Again: this is typical of religiously-inclined, not only towards me but a general belief that believers have no scruples voicing quite openly, in the face of atheists.
There's nothing wrong with voicing one's beliefs openly. Unless your beliefs are that bullying is ok and you voice it in your anti-bullying campaign, in which case it's hilariously wrong. But faulting individuals for "typical" behavior of their assigned group identity not even caring who these individuals are, just because you can label them as belonging to a group - this *is* very wrong. I'm surprised I even have to mention that.
your second paragraph contradicts the first. if there is nothing wrong in voicing beliefs openly why you deny that right to Savage?
again, Savage (as far as I can tell from the linked article) did not address these particular 10 students, did not fault them individually for Christian bullying nor he accused them in being bullies themselves. These students CHOSE to hear his speech as insult against them. Now, you mix together "insulting them and their faith". Their faith does not need defense in the form of getting offended on its behalf. By getting insulted they behaved as that вор на котором шапка горит. By getting up and leaving they pointed his accusing finger on themselves. The joke is really on them.
It's either or: either he insulted them personally or he insulted their faith (but not them). These students should have known that the facts he is talking about exist - that Christians (among them students-Christians) attack, make fun of and bully gays (among them student-gays) - and this behavior is stems from (among other reasons) tenets of Christian faith. This is a cold fact, with numerous examples.
As to your jewish example let me ask you: is it OK to attack random atheist because some commie murderers happened to be ones? "They are all atheists, what's the difference?" - that's exactly what i experience when I am among people of faith. But I take it lightly - until they become intolerably mean. When, in all truth, it is me who should laugh at them - after all, adults believing in fairy tales and seriously defending improbables with a serious, sometimes fanatical look in their eyes are rather hilarious.
if there is nothing wrong in voicing beliefs openly why you deny that right to Savage?
I never denied that right to Savage. The fact of voicing the beliefs is fine, however the content of that voicing, especially in the context - is not. His freedom of speech of course includes the right to call the Bible bullshit and the Christians pansy asses. However if he is doing it to the students while he's in position of authority, with clear intent to hurt them - and he is doing so while presenting himself as anti-bullying activist - he is a jerk and a hypocrite. Jerks and hypocrites have freedom of speech too, and that's great - that's how we discover who they are. Then we call them out for what they are.
It's either or: either he insulted them personally or he insulted their faith (but not them)
He did both. First he insulted their faith (mind you - not criticized, not questioned, but plainly insulted), and when the students refused to continue listening to him, he proceeded to insult them personally, clearly thinking they have some obligation to listen to his insults. You clearly think so too, since you say the mere act of refusing to listen to Savage's insults somehow incriminates the students. It does not. Everybody has the right to speak freely, but nobody has the right to have others to listen to them if they don't want to. If Savage stopped by insulting just Christianity, it would be marginally fine - I still don't think anti-bullying forum is the right place to spread any kind of group animosity, either Christian or anti-Christian, but at least we could say he's trying to open their minds and not to hurt them. However what happened next clearly proved the message was nothing but hate and contempt, on group label basis. This is despicable, and unfortunately not very rare among self-proclaimed promoters of tolerance and good manners on the left.
As to your jewish example let me ask you: is it OK to attack random atheist because some commie murderers happened to be ones
No it is not. However as none of the people in question ever did that, as far as I know, I do not see how this is relevant. "'They' do it too" is not a valid excuse.
it is not 'they do it, too". it is "they did it in the first place, and now they know how it feels on receiving end". I already said how it is relevant.
I am sure there were other Christians in this audience besides those 10 "victims". however, not all of them got up and made a show of indignation by walking out. that's the type of behavior I, as an atheist, am often advised to assume: do not take insults against atheists personally, if you do, you incriminate yourself and in what atheists are being accused of. Note I am not saying this is a reasonable or even logical advise - but that's what i often hear from religious people.
it's a 2-way street. be it jewish-christian, christian-gay, all confessions-vs-atheist situations; it's always helpful to remember that (intrinsically libertarian) principle -do not do anything to others that oyu don't want them to do to you
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-"literally taking on Christian beliefs" - and that from a Journalist major?
"some of our students got hurt". did they really? good.
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Christians, or Muslims, or devout Jews, in my experience, are all the same in this regard.
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f.i., theme di jour is equaling of being an atheist = to being a commie=>socialist=>statist=> Obama supporter &&& (in not so neutral terms); which usually comes to blaming atheists (and me, by association) in all atrocities of Soviet regime during its duration, w/additional bonus of hinting that I'm a wolf in sheep's clothing within Right movement.
Guess, what I'd rather prefer, to be called "pansy ass" or this line of insult?
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I am saying they tasted their own medicine; he never pointed finger to those particular students in the audience - no, they choose to take personally his remarks about religious bullies who attack gays. it's purely their taking on themselves his general observation.
did I ever claim those particular students employed the reasoning I mentioned? no. I said I have experienced, among other slights, this particular line of insult - not from one person, it is a typical line, and usually from American Christians - even from those who have encountered me and my Right-wing political views before. Again: this is typical of religiously-inclined, not only towards me but a general belief that believers have no scruples voicing quite openly, in the face of atheists.
Recently I met same line in a journal of Russian-American Jew - and her commenters (similarly religious) supported it.
This is just one example. There are plenty variations. In this regard, Christians would rather forget their religious differences and unite with Muslims and Jews (of all stripes) against atheists. Yes, I experienced that, too.
So, once again: let them taste their own medicine. And then to grow a thicker skin - as I was advised.
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Again: this is typical of religiously-inclined, not only towards me but a general belief that believers have no scruples voicing quite openly, in the face of atheists.
There's nothing wrong with voicing one's beliefs openly. Unless your beliefs are that bullying is ok and you voice it in your anti-bullying campaign, in which case it's hilariously wrong. But faulting individuals for "typical" behavior of their assigned group identity not even caring who these individuals are, just because you can label them as belonging to a group - this *is* very wrong. I'm surprised I even have to mention that.
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again, Savage (as far as I can tell from the linked article) did not address these particular 10 students, did not fault them individually for Christian bullying nor he accused them in being bullies themselves. These students CHOSE to hear his speech as insult against them. Now, you mix together "insulting them and their faith". Their faith does not need defense in the form of getting offended on its behalf. By getting insulted they behaved as that вор на котором шапка горит. By getting up and leaving they pointed his accusing finger on themselves. The joke is really on them.
It's either or: either he insulted them personally or he insulted their faith (but not them). These students should have known that the facts he is talking about exist - that Christians (among them students-Christians) attack, make fun of and bully gays (among them student-gays) - and this behavior is stems from (among other reasons) tenets of Christian faith. This is a cold fact, with numerous examples.
As to your jewish example let me ask you: is it OK to attack random atheist because some commie murderers happened to be ones? "They are all atheists, what's the difference?" - that's exactly what i experience when I am among people of faith. But I take it lightly - until they become intolerably mean. When, in all truth, it is me who should laugh at them - after all, adults believing in fairy tales and seriously defending improbables with a serious, sometimes fanatical look in their eyes are rather hilarious.
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I never denied that right to Savage. The fact of voicing the beliefs is fine, however the content of that voicing, especially in the context - is not. His freedom of speech of course includes the right to call the Bible bullshit and the Christians pansy asses. However if he is doing it to the students while he's in position of authority, with clear intent to hurt them - and he is doing so while presenting himself as anti-bullying activist - he is a jerk and a hypocrite. Jerks and hypocrites have freedom of speech too, and that's great - that's how we discover who they are. Then we call them out for what they are.
It's either or: either he insulted them personally or he insulted their faith (but not them)
He did both. First he insulted their faith (mind you - not criticized, not questioned, but plainly insulted), and when the students refused to continue listening to him, he proceeded to insult them personally, clearly thinking they have some obligation to listen to his insults. You clearly think so too, since you say the mere act of refusing to listen to Savage's insults somehow incriminates the students. It does not. Everybody has the right to speak freely, but nobody has the right to have others to listen to them if they don't want to.
If Savage stopped by insulting just Christianity, it would be marginally fine - I still don't think anti-bullying forum is the right place to spread any kind of group animosity, either Christian or anti-Christian, but at least we could say he's trying to open their minds and not to hurt them. However what happened next clearly proved the message was nothing but hate and contempt, on group label basis. This is despicable, and unfortunately not very rare among self-proclaimed promoters of tolerance and good manners on the left.
As to your jewish example let me ask you: is it OK to attack random atheist because some commie murderers happened to be ones
No it is not. However as none of the people in question ever did that, as far as I know, I do not see how this is relevant. "'They' do it too" is not a valid excuse.
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it is not 'they do it, too".
it is "they did it in the first place, and now they know how it feels on receiving end".
I already said how it is relevant.
I am sure there were other Christians in this audience besides those 10 "victims". however, not all of them got up and made a show of indignation by walking out. that's the type of behavior I, as an atheist, am often advised to assume: do not take insults against atheists personally, if you do, you incriminate yourself and in what atheists are being accused of. Note I am not saying this is a reasonable or even logical advise - but that's what i often hear from religious people.
it's a 2-way street.
be it jewish-christian, christian-gay, all confessions-vs-atheist situations; it's always helpful to remember that (intrinsically libertarian) principle -do not do anything to others that oyu don't want them to do to you